Why are we such big fans of lists? Who knows. A few days ago, Big Mon and I were sitting around talking about our favorite posse cuts of all time, and happened to come up with a list. That list became a podcast. And that podcast now becomes a topic of discussion. Feel free to chime in with your favorites, what we missed, should have included, etc.

We tried to give it some structure, so we excluded features (De La featuring Common – “The Bizness”); cuts by collectives (Wu-Tang), or anything by Dr Dre, since all of his are effectively compilations. We made an exception for “Scenario”.

You’ll enjoy this one!

Track listing after the jump-

• Craig Mack – “Flava In Ya Ear (Remix)” Featuring Notorious BIG, Rampage, LL Cool J, Busta Rhymes
• Puff Daddy – “All About The Benjamins” Featuring The LOX, Lil Kim, and Notorious BIG
• Mobb Deep “Eye For An Eye” Featuring Nas and Raekwon
• LL Cool J – “I Shot Ya (Remix)” Featuring Keith Murray, Prodigy, Fat Joe, and Foxxy Brown
• Cool Breeze – “Watch For The Hook” Featuring Outkast, Goodie Mob, and Witchdoctor)
• Stop The Violence Movement – “Self Destruction” Featuring BDP, Stetsasonic, Kool Moe Dee, MC Lyte, Doug E. Fresh, Just-Ice, Heavy D, and Public Enemy
• West Coast Rap All Stars – “We’re All In The Same Gang” Featuring King Tee, Body & Soul, Def Jef, Michel’le, Tone Loc, Above The Law, Ice-T, NWA, JJ Fad, Young MC, Digital Underground, Oaktown 3.5.7., MC Hammer, Eazy E
• Get The Fist Movement -”Get The Fist” Featuring King Tee, Yo-Yo, MC Eiht, B-Real, J-Dee, Kam, Threat, and Ice Cube
• Ahmad, Ras Kass, and Saafir – “Come Widdit” From the Street Fighter Movie Soundtrack
• LL Cool J – “4,3,2,1″ Featuring Method Man, Redman, Canibus, and DMX)
• The Legendary KO – “1st Team All State” Featuring DJ Cipher, DJ Cozmos, Mavrek, Rukus, Minus, Kay, D Rose, Symbolyc One, Myone, Leaf, Snap aka Red Cess, Deology, Starchy Arch, Bavu Blakes, V Zilla, J. Sin, and Chip Fu (SHAMELESS PLUG)
• Marley Marl / The Juice Crew – “The Symphony” Featuring Masta Ase, Craig G, Kool G Rap, Big Daddy Kane
• Heavy D – “Don’t Curse” Featuring Kool G Rap, Grand Puba, CL Smooth, Big Daddy Kane, Pete Rock, and Q-Tip
• Flavor Unit MCs – “Roll Wit Tha Flava” Featuring Treach, Chip Fu, Freddie Foxxx, Queen Latifah, Heavy D, D-Nice, and Dres
• De La Soul – “Buddy (Remix)” Featuring A Tribe Called Quest, The Jungle Brothers, Monie Love (and Latifah on a lil part of the bridge)
• Main Source – “Live At The Barbecue” Featuring Nas, Fatal, and Akinyele
• A Tribe Called Quest – “Scenario” Featuring Leaders Of The New School
• Crooklyn Dodgers – “Crooklyn” Featuring Special Ed, Masta Ase, Buckshot
• Crooklyn Dodgers – “Return Of The Crooklyn Dodgers” Featuring Chubb Rock, O.C., and Jeru The Damaja
• Del Tha Funkee Homosapien – “Burnt” Featuring the Hieroglyphics
• EPMD – “Headbanger” Featuring K-Solo and Redman
• King Tee – Played Like A Piano” Featuring Ice Cube and Breeze

Not included in the podcast but worth mentioning:

• Freeway – “What They Do”
• ATCQ – “Scenario (Remix)”
• Fugees – “Cowboys”
• Missy Elliott – “Hot Boys (Remix)”
• UGK – “International Players Anthem”
• And perhaps a million others

With this installment, i’m going with the top 5 hip hop producers of all time. This was by far the most difficult list to date. I tried to stray away from simply listing favorites, and challenged myself to list the “best”. Here’s the criteria that i’m going by:

• First and foremost, I’m considering the producer’s influence and legacy. Game changers. Legends. No fly-by-nighters.
• Not including people who are producers in name, like Diddy. The producer has to have shown the technical ability to make music at some point in their career.

That’s it. I kept it pretty simple. And with that, here’s the list (in no particular order):

1. Dr. Dre: Arguably the most influential hip hop producer ever. (And i’m usually the one arguing that.) Produced or co-produced some of the highest selling artists of all time – NWA, himself, Snoop, Eminem, 50 Cent, Jay-Z, Busta Rhymes. Think about how many records were sold from that list alone. You can’t deny his ability to make classic records with long lasting appeal. Some might debate whether or not he’s taking credit for other people’s production these days, but he’s still the man behind the boards. No different from Quincy Jones having session musicians.
2. Jay Dee / J Dilla: I would have been crucified if his name wasn’t one of the first two mentioned. We’ve had countless debates about who was the greatest – Dilla or Dre – and the results weren’t always clear cut. I like to believe that I won the argument with Dre, but there’s a strong case with Dilla. The sheer volume of his body of work is unfathomable. He was already deep into the game before anybody knew who he was. If you factor in his influence on the latter half of ATCQ’s career, his work with Slum Village, the endless remixes and collabs, and the legendary beat tapes, you have a producer that touched nearly every corner of the hip hop community (as well as a few outside of hip hop). His production style has been duplicated by countless producers out there. Who gavethe clap / snare its distinct sound? Who put the shift in the sequence to bring the snare in a little early? Filtered synths and loops like no other? You already know.  There’s not much to say that you don’t know about already. Truly a legend.
3. Pete Rock: For those of you that were around in the early 90s – remember when everybody had to have a “Pete Rock Remix”? Exactly. Name one weak project that Pete Rock produced. It’s okay, i’ll give you time… NONE.  As far as producers go, Pete Rock owned the “Golden Era”. He was Dilla before Dilla. The production on his own albums are still standards to this day, but he was equally as impressive with tracks for others.
4. DJ Premier: I almost put him and Pete Rock neck in neck for the “Golden Era”. You had to have a Pete Rock Remix and a Premier Remix. Premier probably stepped outside of the east coast more than Pete did. He had signature drum sounds and a style all his own. “Step Into The Arena” and “Daily Operation” were two of the best produced hip hop albums ever, comparable with ATCQ’s 2nd and 3rd albums. And he’s a hell of a DJ. And he’s from TX. Stand up!
5. This is where it got tricky. I couldn’t find a 5th without excluding someone else who could fit in its place. I polled a few people for their feedback, and here’s some of the answers that I got:

• Marley Marl – HIGHLY influential in the earl days of hip hop. Changed the game as far as sampling goes.
• Prince Paul – highly overlooked producer, was responsible for a lot of projects that people take for granted: De la, Stetsasonic, etc
• The Bomb Squad – Public Enemy’s early work, helped launch Ice Cube’s solo career
• De La Soul – a lot of people still don’t know that they do most of their production
• Organized Noize / Earthtone III – Ever heard of the Dungeon Family? Produced Outkast, Goodie MoB, Witchdoctor, etc
• Timbaland – don’t hate. He might be making the good Timberlake money now, but his sound is still rooted in hip hop
• Kanye – ego aside, he is / was a damn good producer. I wouldn’t put him in the top 5, but his name is worth mentioning.
• Manny Fresh – did a lot of popular music for the No Limit camp when they were putting out an album a week
• Pimp C – a much, much better producer than anyone outside of Texas gave him credit for. Put straight up soul and funk on anything he produced. Look at his discography and prove me wrong.
• Q-Tip – his work on the early Tribe projects (if it’s true) is classic. His tracks for Nas, Mobb Deep, and a lot of other people went HARD.

Who did I leave off the list? Who’s worthy of that 5th spot? Did I get it all completely wrong? Discuss below.

Again, this was a pretty difficult topic  to tackle. Not as difficult as the last, but still required some though. Here’s what I went by:

1. I had to think of it more in terms of my “favorites” than in terms of “best”. There is no way that anyone will ever agree on “best” because it’s solely based on opinion.
2. I disqualified “collectives” who did not meet my definition of “groups”. For example, D.I.T.C.was never really billed as a group, just a collection of individuals. For this same reason, (and possibly to the dismay of many), I will not include Wu-Tang on this list because they are essentially a collective of artists under one banner. If you want to debate this, ask RZA. He’s said it himself.
3. Instead of definitive songs, I had to go with albums this time. I’ll even try to explain why I chose the albums.

Just like last time, I’ll also include the names of some groups who may have just missed my Top 5, and the reasons why. I still hold them in high regard, but I had to narrow it to my fave 5.

So feel free to discuss, argue, or whatever. This isn’t a scientific poll. These are personal opinions. I encourage you to share yours as well.

And with that, here’s the list (in no particular order):

1. A Tribe Called Quest: This is an absolutely biased entry into the list, but they’re still justified in being here. A Tribe Called Quest is my favorite music group of all time – any genre. Feels good to say that. In my opinion, they were topically one of the more versatile groups that have come around. They could flip anything from party vibe (“Can I Kick It”); to a love poem (“Electric Relaxation”); all the way down to serious sociopolitical discussion (“Sucka Nigga”) and make it entertaining the whole time. What drew me to them was the consistency of quality music within their albums – which were largely devoid of filler. To this day, I can listen to their first 3 albums all the way through without skipping once. Think of how many groups you know that have 3 consecutive albums with such low skippage material. To me, they were the perfect combo of lyrics and music, with emphasis on the music. They infused jazz as well as or better than anyone at the time. Lyrically, they were witty enough to give you plenty of “A-HA” moments, but not so complex and cryptic that people had to focus  to understand them. In terms of sequencing their albums and giving them steady flow, they were maybe second to Dr. Dre. I won’t bore you with all my stanning on them… i’m obviously very biased, but you’ll have to live with it.

Definitive album(s) – The Low End Theory, Midnight Marauders: Don’t ever ask me to choose between these two albums; you’ll get frustrated. I just can’t (won’t) do it. The Low End Theory is a perfect album to me. Midnight Marauders took “perfect” and perfected it even more. Low End was the first album that literally brought tears to my eyes. By the time I made it to “Jazz (We’ve Got)”, I was a mess. I’m a grown man and very secure in my manhood, so I can admit this. I had a bootleg demo of Midnight before it dropped, and still bumped the retail version as if I’d never heard it. Both of these albums will be in my top 5 albums discussion. Be warned.

1a. De La Soul: Yes, i’m cheating. Sue me. But I like De La for most the same reasons that I cut for Tribe. De La is the steak; ATCQ is the sizzle. Tribe may have had more endearing songs, but De La is what hip hop should have grown up to be. De La was me. I lived in what would have been considered the suburbs at the time, but the kids around me wanted so desperately to fulfill “street dreams”. I had no desire to do so. I was perfectly comfortable with being a nerd. Never wanted to be “hood”. I valued brains over brawn. De La Soul was unashamedly normal. No, not normal – they were themselves. Not caricatures or exaggerations of themselves. That has been and will always be a refreshing quality in musicians. 3 Feet High and Rising challenged me to decipher their unique language, but also felt like a testament of who I was at the time. De La Soul Is Dead taught me that you can be who you are without taking yourself so seriously. The list goes on from there. And they’re still getting it done! 20 years later (damn i’m old!), and I still look forward to hearing what they have to say. Oh – I can’t forget – with Prince Paul in tow, they created the greatest album skits of all time. I don’t even listen to skits or interludes in albums now. If you can’t make them as good as De La did, just cue up the next song. Don’t waste your time.

Definitive album – Buhloone Mindstate: Much shorter than the 2 albums that came before it, but possibly the most poignant. It seemed like a dark and brooding time for them, but it was still an album that I could empathize with. They poured out their souls (no pun intended) all over these songs.

2. Run DMC: The first superstar group of rap. You might even argue that without them, the other groups on this list wouldn’t be here. They are often credited with being the guys that brought rap into the mainstream. No, not the Sugarhill variety. They were admittedly “street”, but were accepted into the homes of the MTV generation. They proved to the world that hip hop was not a fad. Were they the first rappers to star in their own movies? (Krush Groove, Tougher Than Leather). Their collaboration with Aerosmith was a rap / rock fusion that predated the fame that Kid Rock or Limp Bizkit ever received from doing the same. They had a call-and-response chemistry on stage that shamed the other crews whose members just kind of stood around and took turns rapping. They had arguably the world’s greatest DJ at the time, and put on a show like no other. They were my favorite group until Tribe came along. By the way – according to Wikipedia,  here’s a list of their firsts:

• A #1 R&B charting rap album
• The first major rap act to appear on American Bandstand (the Sugar Hill Gang appeared on the program in 1981)
• The first rap act to chart in the Top 40 of the Billboard Hot 100 more than once
• The first rap artist with a top 10 pop charting rap album
• The first rap artist with RIAA-certified gold, platinum, and multi-platinum albums
• The first rap act to appear on the cover of Rolling Stone magazine
• The first rap act to receive a Grammy Award nomination
• The first rap act to make a video appearance on MTV
• Signed to an athletic product endorsement deal (Adidas)

Definitive album – Raising Hell: “Peter Piper”. “My Adidas”. “You Be Illin”. “Dumb Girl”. “Walk This Way”. Done.

See also – Beastie Boys, EPMD: They took Run DMC’s momentum and garnered a ridiculous amount of success from it. First group of white guys to do it big in rap. They may have sold more than Run DMC, but you have to give it up to the architects. EPMD also made their mark. They may have even made more “classic” albums than Run DMC. But it’s RUN DMC, man…

3. Outkast: Dirty South stand up! They made me proud to live below the Mason-Dixon line. But I have an admission to make: a friend of mine let me hear an early incarnation of “Player’s Ball”, a much more Christmas-ey version. I thought it was one of the worst things that i’d ever heard. A year later, I saw the video on TV and was surprisingly intrigued  by the more polished result. Hooked. Being from the South, I was already used to the Geto Boys and UGK, who were incorporating a lot of the same musical elements that Outkast infused in their music, but these dudes could simply rhyme their asses off. While most other rappers were deep into street stories at the time, Outkast came across as the dudes down the street who would sit with you to drink and smoke, but could philosophize with the best of them. On the surface, 3000 and Big Boi seem like polar opposites, but have a synergy that instantly makes them more interesting than almost anyone else. Better than anyone, they have redefined themselves with each album and have taken risks that only they can pull off. After cementing success with the first two albums, they spread their wings creatively with Aquemini, then took it over the edge with “Bombs Over Baghdad”, the lead single for Stankonia. “B.O.B.” opened them up to the widest audience that they’d had up to that point.  Speakerboxxx / The Love Below wa a bold attempt at a largely untried concept – packaging together two solo albums in a single release. I don’t have much to say about Speakerboxx, but The Love Below was a surprisingly brilliant album. This was a hip hop album? Yes. From a southern group who had been called “slow” and “‘Bamas” by their northern counterparts? Yes. Because of their legacy, I even forgive them for Idlewild. I see what they were trying to do with it. I’m not mad. Will they ever record together again? They say yes, but I have to see it to believe it. If and when they do, it’s over for everybody else.

Definitive album – ATLiens: Arguably their best album. Actually, not even arguable. Discuss amongst ourselves.

See also – Goodie Mob: You know what? I may have liked Still Standing more than I did ATLiens at the time. Goodie was the De La to Outkast’s ATCQ. They put me on my ass with some of the topics that they put into song form. It all just ended a little prematurely. They should have been the stuff of legends. And then there was World Party…

4. N.W.A.: Hardest. Group. Ever. I don’t care if half of them were in college a the time. Hardest group ever. Period. “Gangsta” rap might not be accepted today if it were not for them. There would be no Snoop, Pac, Eminem, 50, Jay-Z, Biggie, Lil Wayne, etc, without the influence of N.W.A. They were being watched by the FBI and labeled as potential terrorists. That’s infinitely more gangsta than any skinny jeans wearing pseudo-thug pretending to make “trap music”. THEY MADE AN ALBUM CALLED NIGGAZ 4 LIFE. You couldn’t do that back then. Their best rapper and original producer broke away from the group and each went on to put their footprints on history’s neck. Are you kidding? They were unashamedly offensive, but only to those who didn’t understand the grim reality of what was happening in Innercity, USA. This was the fallout of Reaganomics in the face of America. They embody the most illustrative example of urban struggle in this country. Hardest. Group. Ever.

Definitive album – EFIL4ZAGGIN: Easily in my Top 5. Possibly the best concept album in rap history. They took the word “nigga” and made that bitch tap out.

See also – nobody. There hasn’t been, and never will be, another NWA. Nobody can do what they did today without making it seem like a gimmick. Besides, everything that they did to shock us back then is so commonplace now that we’re desensitized to it.

5. Public Enemy: May have provided some of the most enduring social comentary in the history of rap music. Also watched by the FBI. Militant, but not recklessly militant. Chuck D had some shit on his mind, to say the least. They gave it to you as straight talk – no fancy verbiage or metaphorical posturing. That’s what scared people. In early years, their backdrop of sound was helmed by the legendary Bomb Squad, who also propelled Ice Cube’s solo career. They have been the social conscience of hip hop since Yo Bum Rush the Show. I can’t really tell you more about them than you already know. If they’re not somewhere in your top 5, then you and I are probably not friends.

Definitive album(s) – It Takes A Nation of Millions…,  Fear Of A Black Planet: “Fear” could be my favorite, but I cannot discount the influence of “It Takes”.

See also – nobody. Don’t even try.

Next week – Top 5 Hip Hop albums